Voter suppresion

[Berserker]

Although just an opinion piece, it is yet another item that after reading it makes me shift a little more to the left then before. One day, reading something like this might be anough to convince me to change my independent status..

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/67555.html

[MorGrendel]

Garbage story.

"cutbacks in the days available for pre-Election Day voting" "In Ohio, it went from 35 days to 16."

OK, I get not being able to get to the polls on Tues, but that still 16 days to do it. Also, I don't think this is the same as absentee balloting. Yeah, they don't count your vote unless its close, but still you voted.

"making it harder to assist voters with registration"
Why are these people not signed up with social services? Many states have adopted Motor Voter, which is not an ellaborate process. I think if you get any state ID (also a photo ID which satifies the photo ID issue) you can elect to sign up. If high schoolers can do it in a crowded gym, then I guess I'm missing why it is so difficult for other adults.

Voting for convicted felons:
Heaven forbid felons pay a penalty. In most states this is not the case. Commit a felony in Florida, you might lose your voting rights. Seems pretty straight forward to me.


"In South Carolina, for example, a voter must present a state-issued driver’s license, some other South Carolina Department of Motor Vehicles photo ID, a South Carolina voter registration card, valid U.S. military photo ID or a passport. Nothing else is acceptable." OK, what are we missing?

"eligible voters could not get the required IDs without a substantial expenditure of time, money or both — which many can’t afford. " Cost of a voter card is a stamp, come on.

[MorGrendel]

"Intimidation and deception: Intimidation and deception have consistently been used by the GOP against African-Americans, immigrants, Latinos and students. One common tactic has been to station off-duty police officers at the polls — usually in uniform and sometimes with weapons — which can be threatening to minority voters." Really, men and women fought and died for your right to vote. Cowperson up!

"Partisan gerrymandering is also involved. The Justice Department has concluded that two new Texas districts violate the Voting Rights Act by deliberately “diminishing the ability” of Latinos to elect their preferred candidate to Congress. "
See Ron Paul's lost distric. Also see Roscoe Parrish of MD "new" distric. It happens both ways, and I believe both parties are in cahoots.

Had more but the site eats my large posts.

[MorGrendel]

Oh, and humorously, the Hedgies second rule is:

1. Be respectful of yourself, the equipment, and other Members.
This means stay clean, play nice, clean up after your self, etc.
Also be careful of the games, books, etc – put them away neatly
when you are done with them. Do not mess with the AV
equipment, etc.

2. No talking about politics or religion.
No one can talk about modern politics or religion without getting
rude, so no talking about it in the store.

I guess we have that on them.

[Berserker]

Garbage story.

Well, to each, their own oppinion.

"cutbacks in the days available for pre-Election Day voting" "In Ohio, it went from 35 days to 16."
OK, I get not being able to get to the polls on Tues, but that still 16 days to do it. Also, I don't think this is the same as absentee balloting. Yeah, they don't count your vote unless its close, but still you voted.

Yeah, 16 days sounds like plenty. This probably is not a big deal. I agree.

"making it harder to assist voters with registration"
Why are these people not signed up with social services? Many states have adopted Motor Voter, which is not an ellaborate process. I think if you get any state ID (also a photo ID which satifies the photo ID issue) you can elect to sign up. If high schoolers can do it in a crowded gym, then I guess I'm missing why it is so difficult for other adults.

Yet, why would you purposely make it harder to assist with voter registration? Perhaps there are some that do need that. Just because you think that people should be able to do it on their own, doesn't make it so, nor does it make it right to prevent organizations that are trying to get people out to vote from doing so. I think the point still stands that the process is made harder.

Voting for convicted felons:
Heaven forbid felons pay a penalty. In most states this is not the case. Commit a felony in Florida, you might lose your voting rights. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Yes, you do lose your voting right by going to prison and that's fine with me. That's not what is debated though. Normally, you get it back once you served your sentence. That is fair. Lose it when in jail, get it back when out of jail.

What the article mentions is that in some states, republican governors made it very difficult to get back your voting rights. In one state, the governor has to personally approve you gaining your voting right back. That is wrong in my mind! You were punished and you served your punishment. Now why would you continue to be punished? Once you served your time you should get your basic democratic right to vote back. I have to agree with the article on this one.

"In South Carolina, for example, a voter must present a state-issued driver’s license, some other South Carolina Department of Motor Vehicles photo ID, a South Carolina voter registration card, valid U.S. military photo ID or a passport. Nothing else is acceptable." OK, what are we missing?

Yeah, this part I agree with you. I think that's fine.

"eligible voters could not get the required IDs without a substantial expenditure of time, money or both — which many can’t afford. " Cost of a voter card is a stamp, come on.

Well, when you are on food stamps, that might be something. I can't make a judgement on this one really, but I wouldn't dismiss it right off the bat. Perhaps there is something here. Perhaps it's just smoke and mirrors.

"Intimidation and deception: Intimidation and deception have consistently been used by the GOP against African-Americans, immigrants, Latinos and students. One common tactic has been to station off-duty police officers at the polls — usually in uniform and sometimes with weapons — which can be threatening to minority voters." Really, men and women fought and died for your right to vote. Cowperson up!

I don't agree with your statement. You can't expect all people to be courageous and not intimidable. Intimidation has been used successfully throughout history in all parts of the world. Why would these people be any different? "Man up" is not a solution.

"Partisan gerrymandering is also involved. The Justice Department has concluded that two new Texas districts violate the Voting Rights Act by deliberately “diminishing the ability” of Latinos to elect their preferred candidate to Congress. "
See Ron Paul's lost distric. Also see Roscoe Parrish of MD "new" distric. It happens both ways, and I believe both parties are in cahoots.

Yes, you're right. It is done by both sides. Doesn't make it right, nor is it an excuse though. But yes, I blame them both for this.

2. No talking about politics or religion.
No one can talk about modern politics or religion without getting rude, so no talking about it in the store.

I guess we have that on them.

yeah, I think we do. It's all about coming into a conversation simply to put your point of view and debate, not to try to bash and destroy your opponent. Also, in the end, I always remember that the people i'm debating with here are my brothers, and so things that come forth as personal attacks, I always give the benefit of the doubt because they most likely are not personal attacks. Reading mood from text is a bitch =)

I actually quite enjoy these conversations. I think I learned quite a bit from them. =)

[MorGrendel]

Garbage story. Well, to each, their own oppinion.

It's an op-ed. He/she did not name names or states where this is happening or how they will do it.

Voting for convicted felons:
What the article mentions is that in some states, republican governors made it very difficult to get back your voting rights.

OK, but similar situations are happening in dem states; see Delaware, Virginia, Washinton, and Nevada. Just saying its a biased report. Of note: Maine and Vermont swing the other way with no restrictions, allowing felons to vote from prison. So what do you think about that?

I actually quite enjoy these conversations. I think I learned quite a bit from them. =)

Me too.

[Berserker]

It's an op-ed. He/she did not name names or states where this is happening or how they will do it.

Yes, I've been saying from the beginning that this is an opinnion piece. It touched a chord in me. It didn't do anything for you. That's fine.

Of note: Maine and Vermont swing the other way with no restrictions, allowing felons to vote from prison. So what do you think about that?

I'll take any day a choice to allow felons to vote from prison over the choice to not allow free men their basic right to vote in a democracy.

Neat Link for a complete list of all states and their rules for felon voting.

[MorGrendel]

Interesting. In our republic I believe voting is a privilege not a right. Moreover, we disenfrascise large sections of of populous every day; We do not allow Citizen under 18 to vote, despite the fact that they may have bred or served in the military (extreme case). Disenfrancisement comes with voting, not everyone get to vote. I believe certain felonies prove you are opposed to the rules of an American society, and should allow for disenfrancisement. In particular, the felonies of terrorism (attempting/resulting in the loss of life), treason, and murder should disqualify your privelege to vote. I also might see this extended to the truely horrific crimes of child rape, torture, neglect, battery, and life destroying crimes of fraud, identity theft, forgery, and misrepersentation.

[Berserker]

I'm not arguing what levels of punishments should be doled out to criminals. If you think that a terrorist should lose the right to vote as part of his punishment, that's a level of punishment that the judicial branch could dole out. It is the job of the judicial system to decide what a fitting and fair punishment is for each crime. Perhaps you don't think the punishmets are high anough, and that's fine, but that's a different story.

I am arguing that once a punishment is completed, the criminal is no longer a criminal. He served what the juridicial system decided was a fair punishment for his crime. He is now a free man, and the states should not further punish them. In these cases (the handfull of states that do this), these felons have completed their punishment, yet still require the goodwill of the governor to restore their voting rights.

As for hard core felons, terrorists, child rapists and murderors, they most likely get life sentences and whatnot, so they are not really an issue. Yet, even if they do get out 50 years later because they completed their fair punishment as decided by the judicial system, then they too are free citizens now. But I'm more talking about the small time felon who gets caught with dope in his pocket and does a few years for it. He still has the rest of his life ahead of him and it's not fair to be further punished.

The governor now has it in his power to decide further, after the person is released, if he feels like he should punish the felon further and restrict his right to vote, or not, based on his whims. I find that very unfair.

[MorGrendel]

Perhaps, the judicial system leaves me wanting.

On average sex offenders serve longer terms in prison and jail than persons
convicted of other felony offenses. In fiscal year 2003, the average sentence length
for all felonies was 37.3 months, compared to 90.8 months for sex offenses.

http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/SSOSAReport.pdf

4 years, not 50, not life. Or 8 years, for the child rapist.

Murder and Manslaughter
Offenders who have been sentenced to prison for murder or manslaughter will serve an average of 19.1 years in prison under the minimum 85% of sentence served policy compared to 13.1 years under the old parole system and 12.2 years when early prison release existed (chart 8).

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/timeserv/ ... tion2.html

Prisons now Correction Facilities are believed to rehabilitate, so prisioners became inmates, who with good behavior are released before completing their sentences. Now with overcrowding there are additional programs to release prisoners. I find the judical system undermined and toothless.

As you point out I bring up the worst of crimes, but that is because they are the only ones that carry more than a slap on the wrist.

[Berserker]

So what you're saying is that you don't agree with the current level of punishment being given to felons of all kinds. You want punishments increased. That's fine. Perhaps they are too low, perhaps they are fine. I don't know anough about what punishments are given for what crimes so I can't make a statement on that.

But I'm not arguing that. What I'm arguing is that once punishment is given and served, you're done, you're free.

[Berserker]

Article about new voter ID restrictions and their effect on students. It talks about how the new laws require students that attend out-of-state college to get an ID of the state they go to college, in order to vote. They can't use the ID of the state they live in to authenticate themselves. Pretty messed up..

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/69465.html

As a side, I love this quote:
"New Hampshire House Speaker William O’Brien, a Republican, told a tea party group that allowing people to register and vote on Election Day led to “the kids coming out of the schools and basically doing what I did when I was a kid, which is voting as a liberal. That’s what kids do — they don’t have life experience, and they just vote their feelings."

Clearly these kids must be stopped! ;)

[MorGrendel]

The group set up a fake voting booth and invited students to come “vote” in order to receive free baked goods — if they had a valid Pennsylvania state ID, that is. The many students who didn’t have one were given a box of raisins and a “HB 934 Stole My Baked Goods” sticker.

No one stole your vote, assholes. Vote in the state your registered. That's the rule. No one is demanding voting booths for soldiers, and they are dying for your freedom. They are forced to vote by absentee ballot, and so should you. Dems love regulation, until it affects them.

Imagine the effect, if voters were shipped into one of the early voting states. It would create creating a false impression about how the country feels about the canidates. (Note: John Edward's ran for president several times with positive poll numbers, but could never win his home state . . . Why was that again?)

Now all that said, why in this modern day and age we can not figure out an effective way to vote electronicly, I can not say. Count it towards your home state, and I'm fine with it, assuming its at least as secure as online banking.

However, I believe the govenrment has never, even since the founders, wanted a directly-represented democracy (at least for president, since that is all that matters here. I don't think you can out-of-state vote for county counsil.), choosing instead an American invention, indirect-election-federalism. I know the construct seems overly elaborate and unnecessary, but I believe its strengths outweigh its weaknesses.

[Berserker]

Sure, absentee ballots is certainly an option, but it is not as easy an option compared to just going down to the voting booth with your buddies when the booths open.

No one stole your vote, assholes. Vote in the state your registered. That's the rule. No one is demanding voting booths for soldiers, and they are dying for your freedom. They are forced to vote by absentee ballot, and so should you. Dems love regulation, until it affects them.

Soldiers are in a different country, possibly in a hostile country where there is no option for you to vote other than through an absentee ballot. This is a poor comparison to the situation students are in because students all live in the US, and they get to vote down the street at the local school.

What are you gaining from forcing a student to go out of his way to vote? Voter fraud prevention? How much? Why is their NY ID not good anough to authenticate them in Florida? And why pass all these laws now that we have an election? Why not 2 years ago so there would be time anough to debate and change anything that is not found kosher?

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As a side, please don't turns arguments into patriotism. Nothing makes me oppose something said more than when someone tries to make it about patriotism.
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Imagine the effect, if voters were shipped into one of the early voting states. It would create creating a false impression about how the country feels about the canidates. (Note: John Edward's ran for president several times with positive poll numbers, but could never win his home state . . . Why was that again?)

I'm not sure this affects much besides who will be chosen to run against the president. I thought the actual presidential vote all happens in the same day (within hours to account for time differences).

I do actually hate this whole early state voting. All these states battle to try be the first to vote so they can get the campaign money. Did you notice that this year, the republican votes start in december simply because one state decided they will be first, and other states then one upped it and everything is now earlier? At this rate 20 years from now, the election voting will start 3.5 years before the next election ;)

Now all that said, why in this modern day and age we can not figure out an effective way to vote electronicly, I can not say. Count it towards your home state, and I'm fine with it, assuming its at least as secure as online banking.

That would be the day. I would love to be able to vote online. It would make it sooo easy and convenient and it would take away all the arguments about fraund and the like.

Of course, the first year it will be attemped, it will be hacked by the Chinese and the result will be 120% voting turn-out for the new US Overlord :P

However, I believe the govenrment has never, even since the founders, wanted a directly-represented democracy (at least for president, since that is all that matters here. I don't think you can out-of-state vote for county counsil.), choosing instead an American invention, indirect-election-federalism. I know the construct seems overly elaborate and unnecessary, but I believe its strengths outweigh its weaknesses.

I don't know much about this so I would love to hear your thoughts on the strenghs and weakeness of indirect-election-federalism. Perhaps we should take this offline as it will be a good conversation. =)

[MorGrendel]

Sure, absentee ballots is certainly an option, but it is not as easy an option compared to just going down to the voting booth with your buddies when the booths open.

<snark with a smile> Heaven forbid the leaders of the future try. Heck, if they want easy, why not let someone vote for them.

Soldiers are in a different country, possibly in a hostile country where there is no option for you to vote other than through an absentee ballot. This is a poor comparison to the situation students are in because students all live in the US, and they get to vote down the street at the local school.

Both are away from home, hence the validity of the comparision.

What are you gaining from forcing a student to go out of his way to vote? Voter fraud prevention? How much?

I don't think you gain anything. However, there are ramifications to going to school out of state. If you can't handle the responsibility, don't do it. If you want to be treated like a fully-functioning adult, then own up to your choices and act like one.

Why is their NY ID not good anough to authenticate them in Florida?

Because those are the rules. They were not written yesterday.

And why pass all these laws now that we have an election? Why not 2 years ago so there would be time anough to debate and change anything that is not found kosher?

[/quote]

This is nothing new. Comes up all the time. Bills go before congress, many amount to very little, but it has changed since Madison's days.