No-Fly List

[MorGrendel]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 58,00.html

I know some times I sound like the Conspiracy Hippie, but then I see articles like this that point out the "no-fly list" has doubled in one year. Tell me again how these forien wars are making us safer. And worse, and I hate having this feeling, with SOPA and PIPA in the news, one wonders how much internet information gathering has played a role in this. And I know what you will say, the laws didn't pass so the government can't do any of those things yet, except every law regarding Gautanimo Bay was written ex post facto. Finally, in the wake of SOPA, I saw an article where the FBI (I think) was tapping major companies to build them analyzing software to monitor socal networks. Two things struck me: 1. Seems rather presumptive that SOPA (or something like it) will pass, and 2. We have spent 10 years at war, costing 4 trillion dollars and 6000 US lives, and we don't have the software to track Twitter! Well, here's hoping that when they read this post, my name won't go on a secret list.

[Berserker]

Then it should make you feel better that Obama announced that he wants to withdraw troops from Afganistan as well (Obama said 10,000 of the "surge" forces would withdraw by the end of this year, and 23,000 would leave Afghanistan by September 2012).

He already ended the Iraq war and now he's going after the Afganistan War. +1 Obama =)

[MorGrendel]

I'd feel better if i knew why we were there, or knew why we could not come home now. When exactly will the afganistan piplines be done?

[Berserker]

It can't be the oil, as Afganistan doesn't really have much. It must be sand. Makes beautiful glass ;)

[MorGrendel]

Who said anything about Afganistan having oil? You know what they say about assuming.

Sums it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbnHrkT ... re=related

[Fritz]

I'd feel better if i knew why we were there, or knew why we could not come home now. When exactly will the afganistan piplines be done?

The whole idea that this country would revert to it's pre-9/11 state should we just leave immediately is not just an excuse; it's the reality of the situation. All the civilians here are already resigned to the idea of a Taliban take over when we leave. The only thing stopping it is the Taliban is scared shitless of our forces, especially our airpower. The main thing bringing them to the negotiating table is the threat of an indefinite presence, even a small one. You won't see the grunts out there manning the border after next year. However, expect to see Army helicopters and the Air Force to continue to have a presence for a while after that. These guys aren't dumb. As of right now they still have a working alliance with al-Qaeda, even if they don't like each other. These guys aren't dumb. They understand that their alliance with al-Qaeda is the only reason we're here and that if the US homeland were attacked again from groups sheltered in Afghanistan, public opinion would swing right back to war. However, they need a reason to ditch al-Qaeda. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes that I can't talk about, but Jeff you should take hope in the negotiations going on in Qatar right now. They are the best shot at getting what we want without having to stay here forever.

[MorGrendel]

I appreciate you weighing in, and I must take you at your word that there is more to the story than you can say.

That said, I do not suppose that Afganistan will revert back to its pre-9/11 state, nor do I suppose that is good or bad for America. I do suppose our actions always have unforseen consiquences, and that the Taliban used to be real friendly with us when we were suppling them stingers to fight the Commies. Part of the reason we spend so much time "nation building" now, is because of how things turned out after the last time we left Afganistan. I guess my main fear is leaving a vacuum that is filled by something worse that al-qaeda, not just in Afganistan but in all of Eurasia. And I fear that since the Afgans do not believe we have their best interests in mind, that we forfiet our moral legitamacy by how we treat their neighbors, and we have shown to act in our best interests (politically) at the expense of the common man, any "agreements" we reach with them will be lip-service and venier agreements at best.

Moreover, and back to my original point, are we truely safer 10 years later?

[Fritz]

I fear that since the Afgans do not believe we have their best interests in mind, that we forfiet our moral legitamacy by how we treat their neighbors, and we have shown to act in our best interests (politically) at the expense of the common man, any "agreements" we reach with them will be lip-service and venier agreements at best.

Moreover, and back to my original point, are we truely safer 10 years later?

Actually out of the three entities here (NATO, Taliban, and GIRoA) the Afghanis probably like ourselves and NATO the best. They don't care for the Taliban's intimidation tactics, but they prefer what they see as the fairness of Taliban rule (despite it's harshness) to the incompetence and corruption of GIRoA.

And no we're not safer than we were 10 years ago. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with Afghanistan and everything to do with Iraq. Afghanistan was justified and largely seen as legitimate by the world as a whole. Al-Qaeda had just killed thousands of Americans and was being sheltered by the Taliban. The Taliban wouldn't give up al-Qaeda. That's about as good of a reason for war as I can think of. Afghanistan could have been won and the Taliban utterly defeated had we not devoted most of our attention and effort to an utterly pointless war in Iraq. That said, this is not your father's Taliban. They've learned some hard lessons. Time will tell if they refer to their old ways.