And you guys hated High Elves...

[Fritz]

The Dark Elves appear imminent for October. If you think High Elves are bad, the rumors around their dark cousins look even meaner:

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/09/dark ... wness.html

[Berserker]

Well, dark elves were always considered a top tier army and could do some really nasty builds. I considered them once as a second army for their hydras (I like monsters!). But they were still too elvish for my taste.. But maybe if they add a few more monsters in, I might consider them again ;)

I will wait for the actual book though as those rumors are well.. rumors. I doubt they would make any army ASF and Hatred for example (which I interpret as re-roll twice first round if initiative is higher which it most likely is). That would make pretty ridiculous units.

[Fritz]

Remember, you can't re-roll a re-roll. So having hatred and ASF actually isn't all that useful. It would only come into play if a) your opponent has a higher initiative or b) your opponent also has ASF. I think it's actually a pretty good solution for dark elves. Against most opponents they're doing the elf thing and using ASF. Against other elves they're re-rolling in the first round because they really hate them. If those price estimates are correct they definitely pay for it.

The reason they're considered top tier is mainly because of their abusive magic items. They have that stupid inverse ward save and they have the sacrificial dagger that gives you power dice so long as you had bodies to spend. I think overall we'll see them come back down to earth even if these rumors are true. The rule I'm loathing is murderous intent. Re-rolling all 1s to wound sounds absolutely vicious. Their spears are gonna be soooo much better than mine. But for 12 points a pop, that would make sense.

[Berserker]

Oh, I didn't know you couldn't re-roll re-rolls. In that case, that rule is made for high elves ;)

I still want to see what new monsters they get.

[Fritz]

There were pictures floating around, but GW may have gotten to them by now. I think the only monsters I saw were a plastic dual kit Hydra/Kraken. They already had a Hyrdra, but the Kraken is a new choice. Like I said, murderous intent is the rule I'm looking at the closest. The ability to re-roll all 1s to wound in combination with Hatred is very very nasty. I'd take that over martial prowess any day of the week because you'll get longer use out of it. Once you start taking casualties in that third rank, Martial Prowess stops being a factor (which happens often with expensive infantry). Murderous Prowess keeps being a factor up until you have no more guys to fight with.

I forgot one other situation: great weapon wielding models. Because ASF and ASL cancel each other out, a model with those rules and hatred would re-roll to hit in the first round and strike at initiative order.

Let's take 15 White Lions against a random WS4 and T4 enemy, which is average to slightly above par in Warhammer. The White Lions will average 10 hits and 8 wounds. Now substitute Martial Prowess for Murderous Intent. Those same S6 great weapon models fighting in only 2 ranks will average 7 hits and average 7 wounds (because they wound on a 2+ and thus re-roll anything that doesn't wound). That's only 1 less wound for 5 less supporting attacks. Now let's assume the unit has taken some casualties and is reduced to 10 models. With Martial Prowess, the unit only inflicts 7 hits and 6 wounds. However, with Murderous Prowess, you stay at 7 hits and 7 wounds.

The same kind of thing applies to Spearmen. 20 Spearmen using Martial Prowess against a WS4 T3 enemy, they will average 15 hits and 5 wounds. With Murderous Intent they would average 11.25 hits, and 4.375 wounds. 5 less models, 1 less wound caused. Now reduce the units to 15. Martial Prowess get 11 hits and 3.75 wounds while Murderous Prowess stays the same.

So in the end, Martial Prowess and Murderous Prowess are about equal. Martial Prowess is better when a unit can maximize their 3 ranks of attacks. Murderous Prowess is superior with attrition or when a unit is just smaller.. However, let's throw hatred in there. With great weapons it's just plain better because you get a re-roll in the first round. Those 7 hits and 7 wounds turn into 9 hits and 9 wounds. With spears it is less so. It only factors in when fighting other ASF models or models with higher initiative. Guess who that will be a factor against? Other Elves (let's not forget the poor Wood Elves that are likely to get ASF as well at this point).

Now I'm not trying to cry OP here. On the contrary, I like that they're taking Dark Elves back to a more elite look. The super cheap elves from the last book felt so wrong. I am however, very worried about the match up if these rumors are true. I just hope they get the points right. Dark Elves and High Elf have many parallel units and if ASF goes to Dark Elves as well, they have to be very careful about how the two armies match up. The points costs floating out there for their models seems about right. I just hope they're accurate. On average Dark Elves should be 1-2 points more than the equivalent High Elf with these rumored rules.

[Fritz]

Latest rumors say that they just have hatred (High Elves), with Dark Elf Spearmen coming in at the same cost as High Elf Spearmen. I guess I just need to make sure I bring extra bodies when fighting Dark Elves so that Martial Prowess keeps going for longer and evens out their advantage in the first round of combat.

[Fritz]

New models are up on the GW page. Love most of the range, but those witch elves are ugly as sin.

[Berserker]

Yeah, I agree. Just cause they are evil elves, doesn't mean they shouldn't look good. I mean, isn't the elf breed supposed to be the pretty breed? Perhaps bigger boobs, less eye makeup and better wardrobe might do the trick..

[Fritz]

There are just so many things wrong with it. The color scheme isn't great, but the poses and the hair I think are also my issue. Nothing about them looks like the dark elegance I've come to expect from witch elves. I guess because they're frenzied the designer wanted to make them more feral.

[Fritz]

Well Dark Magic is absurd:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s-MwWjTGTxQ/U ... AG0155.jpg

[Titus]

Yeah my vortex has the same casting value and only does a wound, not remove the entire model.

[Fritz]

Power of Darkness is what really caught my eye. It used to just give D3 power dice. Now it gives a buff AND D3 power dice. If you get it off on 2 dice, you will have effectively gotten +1 strength for a unit while getting at least 1 die back. And you can do it as many times as you have casters. The good news is before combat you can effectively ignore it. However, once combat starts, I think dispelling Power of Darkness becomes a top priority while saving a dispel scroll for Word of Pain. The damned sacrificial dagger is still in the book too. Thankfully it only works on a 4+ (although you can keep killing your models until you get the 4+) and the cheapest model in the army is 9 points.

Now that I've had a little more time to digest it, the lore isn't all that bad. What irritates me is that it has clear synergy with the army, unlike High Magic which does nothing to help the inherent weaknesses of High Elves in combat. I have to see what I can do with the list as a whole before making an informed judgement, but I'm starting to get the feeling that Dark Elves are going to do everything just that little bit better than High Elves. It's going to come down to the points values I suppose. I think the main comparisons I'm going to look at are White Lions/Swordmasters vs Executioners, Phoenix Guard vs Black Guard, Spears vs Spears, and Repeater Crossbows vs Archers.

[Fritz]

Alright, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. The best way to evaluate these guys I think is to break it down to against other opponents and against each other.

Executioners and White Lions have an identical stat line, both ASF, and both have heavy armor and great weapons. White Lions have their cloaks and stubborn, Executioners have killing blow. White Lions will probably reach combat a little more intact than the Executioners, and the Executioners will average ever so slightly less kills assuming both units are capable of bringing their full number of attacks to bear, which probably justifies the fact that Executioners are 1 point cheaper than White Lions. Against each other in combat Executioners are the clear winner thanks to Hatred (High Elves). The re-roll in the first round evens out any advantage from extra Martial Prowess attacks, which in turn will hinder White Lions ability to take full advantage of Martial Prowess in later rounds. The White Lions stubborn will keep them fighting to the bitter end, but the Executioners will win point-for-point easily. The edge here go to the Dark Elves.

Phoenix Guard and Black Guard have an identical stat line, both have ASF, and both have heavy armor and halberd. Their special rules, however, are quite different. Phoenix Guard cause fear and have a 4+ ward save. Black Guard have Eternal Hatred, allowing re-rolls to hit in every round of combat, and Stubborn. They both cost the same amount. Against other armies, the Phoenix Guard are clear winners. The 4+ ward save is incredible and with I6 they re-roll to hit in most causes thanks to ASF. Black Guard's stubborn is nice, but their Eternal Hatred will be wasted against most opponents since ASF would give them re-rolls anyway. Eternal Hatred is clearly designed to get used against other ASF opponents (ie Elves), however against each other the Phoenix Guard still hold the edge. The Black Guard will average only 2.5 kills per turn, largely thanks to the Phoenix Guard's 4+ ward save. The Phoenix Guard will average just over 4 kills per turn. Like the White Lions, the Black Guard will hold out to the bitter end, but the Phoenix Guard should eventually win this match up. Advantage High Elves. The Black Guard pay way too many points for Stubborn and the mostly useless Eternal Hatred.

Spears vs Spears the only differences are the army wide special rules. Same points and everything. High Elves have Martial Prowess, Dark Elves have Murderous Prowess and Hatred (High Elves). This match up is pretty much even across the board. They do around the same number of kills against other armies and the slight edge Dark Elves gain in the first round from hatred (High Elves) is negligible considering how low the kill numbers on both sides will tend to be. This one is a dead heat.

It should be noted that Dark Elves can get hand weapon and shield instead of spear and shield (same points). While it doesn't make much math difference as far as winning combat, I does allow Dark Elf core infantry to be a bit better at just being a roadblock thanks to the 6+ parry save.

Repeater Crossbowmen and Archers, while serving the same purpose, are quite different. Repeater Crossbowmen have light armor, can buy shields for 1 point, and, obviously, carry the repeater crossbow, which is range 24" S3, Armor Piercing, and Multiple Shots (2). They come in at 12 points. Archers have no armor (can get light armor for 1 point) and carry the standard longbow for 10 points. The opponent doesn't really matter all the much in this case since hatred (High Elves) is pretty much a non-factor in a shooting fight. Murderous Prowess also has no effect on shooting. Martial Prowess, however, DOES have an effect, giving High Elves that extra range of full shooting. While moving a Repeater Crossbow unit can get off about 25% more shots, but that comes at the cost of -1 to hit. Standing still, however, the Longbow has volley fire, possibly evening out the number of shots being dished out. Finally, the longbow's extra 6" range can be a huge factor in a fire fight. The only true advantage the Repeater Crossbowmen have is their armor piercing weapon and light armor (oh yay a 6+ armor save). I don't think it's worth the 2 extra points per model. Advantage here goes to the High Elves.

Overall the Dark Elf book appears to be panning out quite well. Plenty of cool new models, solid rules, and what looks to be the same good internal balance I've come to expect from the 8th edition army books. I think a Cult of Khaine theme will be one of the more popular armies to come out of this book. Executioners are fantastic for their points and Witch Elves are now Core. Something tells me a two hand weapon, frenzied, ASF model with poison attacks and murderous prowess is going to be a popular Core choice even at 11 points per model, especially since the Cauldron of Blood gives them a 6+ ward save. The models are starting to grow on me now that I've seen them unpainted. The standard paint job did not do the models justice.

[MorGrendel]

Nope. Still hate HE.
Nothing I've seen beats all the HE ward saves and Flames of the Phoenix. And besides, nobody plays Dark Elves but repressed fanboys who want to rub tiny metal/plastic boobies. I don't see much of a threat. :)

But maybe I'm just a bitter LM player, which got stuck with high magic and a meh lore attribute.

[Berserker]

But no new cool monsters.. Still the only cool monster they got is the hydra which looks very sweet! I would love to have a model.

I don't like the Kharibdyss model at all though. It looks like a thing with a bunch of hoses that have teeth attached to it. Fail.