Nagash is back

[Fritz]

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/08/le ... agash.html

1000 points and very killable. Definitely a nasty as hell caster though.

[boagrius]

Here's the rules printed.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/08/ ... s.html?m=1

I have to get it to take over my tomb kings.

[Fritz]

Small problem. Unless this coming new supplement allows for an "unbound" style army like 40k does now, Nagash currently can only be used in games of 4000 points or more seeing as he counts against the lord allotment. Of course you can always just house rule it =)

[Fritz]

So about that lord allotment. Apparently this coming supplement is more like a storm of magic kind of thing than an army book. The lord allotment is 50%. In addition, that new lore of Undeath mentioned in Nagash's rules is supposedly something that is usable by everyone. The book itself is packaged more like the latest 40k rule book; it's two books (one fluff, one rules) inside a hard slipcover.

And more pictures (it's in Spanish otherwise):
http://latabernadelaurana.blogspot.com/ ... so-de.html

[MorGrendel]

Nagash - Panash. I'm pretty sure I took him down with Oxltyl in our Battle of Champions.

Though that was probably after Lord Croak wrecked the place. If I remember it correctly, Dan's Orc war boss, Azhag the Slaughterer, flew in on a wyvern, promptly lost the first fight and flew away. Croak cast a full power Ruination of Cities, melting the faces of so many, except Azhag, who was out of range. In the end Azhag fought Croak for supremacy. He lost, but his tactic was sound.

[Fritz]

Something of note for the larger direction of Warhammer based on what I've seen from the leaks. All the new "Mortarchs" are riding Dark Abyssals and have a single profile with the benefits of the mount merged into that profile. Mannfred von Carstein for example, is originally T5 W5 and A5 in the Vampire Counts book. However, in his latest incarnation he is T6 W10 and A9. It remains to be seen if this is a straight rules change written into the Nagash book or just a sign of things to come.

I think this could be very interesting combined with the 50% lords allotment. One of the biggest problems that people talk about with Warhammer is start up cost. Let's face it, this edition likes big units. The biggest counter to big units is monsters thunderstomping all over the place. Monsters on their own are doing just fine, but ridden monsters suffer heavily from cheap cannons that hit both the mount and the rider. Take that weakness away, you've got good incentive to take ridden monsters and with 50% lord, you can take more of them. It also simplifies the game. No more worrying about having a dismounted character for if the monster dies. No more monster reaction tests.

It could, however, make for some very very nasty stat lines. Take a look at your current ridden monster options and assume you just use the highest weapon skill, ballistic skill, strength, toughness, and initiative and then add attacks and wounds as has been done with the Nagash book. A High Elf Prince on a Star Dragon would be WS7 S7 T7 I8 W10 and A10 with always strike first. Now add in magic items to include ward saves. Holy shit balls that's mean. However, you're talking about something that's around 620-640 points. I can get 48 great weapon toting White Lions for that cost. So I put it to all of you: is this the return of herohammer, or just a balancing of current options? Are ridden monsters going to dominate or is the points cost prohibitive enough to make troops just as viable?

[MorGrendel]

Well, I think it is time for the release cycle to make its way back to herohammer to make the most for profits.

I don't mind the combined stats, but I hope they keep Initiative and Attacks separate. To me, that ruins the fluff when they are combined.
I don't really understand why it is so hard to believe that the rider and the mount are both struck. When a car runs into something, all the passengers are affected. Me thinks you just want to keep your expensive hero away from cannons.

I wonder how they will handle a Slann riding a Stegadon?

[Berserker]

So this nagash is the new Warhammer fantasy?

I just got an email from gamesworkshop telling me to buy that book and gave 4 bullets as a teasers, as quoted below:
1) All wizards can summon the undead. <-- seriously? So now all wizards are evil? Why the hell would a good army ever summon the undead? Bullshit!
2) Field more Lords <-- yup, sounds like herohammer is back!
3) New rules for some of your favorite characters
4) Combined Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts

[Fritz]

So this nagash is the new Warhammer fantasy?

No, it's not a new edition. It's a supplement. The 50% lord thing, however, is for both armies should you choose to use the supplement. I'm just wondering if it's a sign of what 9th edition to bring. As of right now, the rumored releases for Warhammer are 3 more "End Times" supplements with Bretonnia splashed in there somewhere and then we get 9th edition during the late spring/early summer of 2015.

I just got an email from gamesworkshop telling me to buy that book and gave 4 bullets as a teasers, as quoted below:
1) All wizards can summon the undead. <-- seriously? So now all wizards are evil? Why the hell would a good army ever summon the undead? Bullshit!

Yes, everyone gets access to the Lore of Undeath. The backstory is that with Nagash back, death magic is in ascendant, making it very easy to tap into the Lore of Undeath. However, Nagash is oddly enough not exactly siding with the bad guys. Don't get me wrong, he wants everything dead, but he wants to do so because he wants to bring order to the world. Chaos is by its very nature diametrically opposed to that. He's more worried about Chaos than anything. Rumor has it he actually sends one of his servants to save the Empire from being completely overwhelmed by Chaos. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that. So your guys tapping into the Lore of Undeath isn't necessarily them being evil. It's them being very very desperate. It's different, it's interesting, and it's a huge shake up Warhammer, which I think the game could use. I've been dying for them to advance the story. Well now they have and in a huge way.

2) Field more Lords <-- yup, sounds like herohammer is back!

Herohammer to me isn't necessarily just character heavy. It means characters dominate and troops don't stand a chance. While the former seems obvious at this point, I'm not convinced of the latter. Like I said, 48 White Lions or 1 Dragon; which do you think is really going to do better?

3) New rules for some of your favorite characters

Definitely some great stuff here for those of us that have been around for a while. Neferata, Valten, and Crom the Conquerer are all back. Hells yes!

4) Combined Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts

Yup. A lot of the older undead players are very happy about that. The armies didn't split until 6th edition, so many old undead players have models from both armies.

[Berserker]

I'm all for story advancement and what you mentioned sounds interesting.

I just don't agree with summoning of undead abilities for good races in principle, though once it comes out maybe it will be implemented in an awesome way.

Being a necromancer makes you evil. If you turn to necromancy in desparation, you are now evil. Therefore there are no more good wizards.

I would think at least some of the more noble races would rather die before doing this and would actively hunt and destroy any necromancers they find. But you can't hide a bunch of undead on the field of battle can you? How are you going to accept that a pure noble race like the high elves, ever to fight side by side with dead things? Why would the dead not munch on the human next to them instead of charging into the undead up the hill? It just makes no sense to have troops like that fight together. Heck, even neutral races like the Ogres, i see no reason why they would ever choose to ally with the undead. The dead have nothing for them.

[Fritz]

I don't really understand why it is so hard to believe that the rider and the mount are both struck. When a car runs into something, all the passengers are affected. Me thinks you just want to keep your expensive hero away from cannons.

You can't stay away from the laser guided cruise missiles that are cannons in this edition. And yes, there would be impact, but that's not what the rules are reflecting. When a stone thrower hits a monster, only the rider OR the mount gets hit with the center template strength. The other takes the lower strength outer template hit. With cannons, however, you're taking the same strength hit. You can't tell me that getting hit with a cannon ball hurts the same as riding on something that takes the hit. If I'm in a helicopter that gets hit by a missile, yeah I'm going to feel it, but no where near as badly as the poor bastard at the point of impact. What the current cannon rules reflect is a projectile the size of a volleyball fired out of a black powder era weapon hitting both a monster and a human sized target over large distances every single time.

I do agree about disliking merging everything though, especially strength and attacks. I was more in favor of something akin to the current monstrous cavalry rules, where you use the highest value for toughness and wounds, but each retains their own attacking characteristics. I'm surprised to see them take this direction, but I'm not sure it's game breaking considering how heavy the investment is for monster riding characters.

[MorGrendel]

I just don't agree with summoning of undead abilities for good races in principle, though once it comes out maybe it will be implemented in an awesome way. ... I would think at least some of the more noble races would rather die before doing this ...

Lizardmen carry "dead" Slann mages around, Lord Croak being one of the most powerful. I could see Croak rocking a bodyguard unit of "dead" temple guard or the spirits of "dead" temple guard. They would be more a manifestation of his being, than animated zombies.

I'm pretty sure the Wood Elves run around with all sorts of spirits, what's to say they are not the incarnations of ancestors?

Humans - Barely good. They wouldn't care.

High Elves, They would do it and they will probably be Ethereal, Walk Through Worlds, and have a 3+ Ward. Eldar, there future-selves animate dreadnoughts with the souls of fallen Eldar Seers (I think).

Perhaps, your Ogres froze to death. They are whole, just frozen like those guys beyond the Wall. (Winter is coming... Uhgg, Let it go. Ha.)

I think it could work.

[Fritz]

I'm all for story advancement and what you mentioned sounds interesting.

I just don't agree with summoning of undead abilities for good races in principle, though once it comes out maybe it will be implemented in an awesome way.

Being a necromancer makes you evil. If you turn to necromancy in desparation, you are now evil. Therefore there are no more good wizards.

Just because you have the option of using it doesn't mean you have to use it. You choose whether to use the lore of undeath. I doubt most people will for the simple matter of having to buy undead models to do it. I very much like the option because it lets players make a choice. Choice is always good for a game system.

I would think at least some of the more noble races would rather die before doing this and would actively hunt and destroy any necromancers they find. But you can't hide a bunch of undead on the field of battle can you? How are you going to accept that a pure noble race like the high elves, ever to fight side by side with dead things? Why would the dead not munch on the human next to them instead of charging into the undead up the hill? It just makes no sense to have troops like that fight together. Heck, even neutral races like the Ogres, i see no reason why they would ever choose to ally with the undead. The dead have nothing for them.

Ogres also have no reason not to ally with undead. After all, Ogres will fight for damned near anything. Think of it this way: if you use some dead dudes, you don't have to share any food with them after the fight! Either way, I don't see a problem with Ogres doing it in the slightest.

Empire and Bretonnia are the two "good" factions that I see embracing this without an issue. Empire is super desperate right now. They have the von Carsteins fighting on their side for crying out loud. I can see wizards slipping into the ease of using undead to help them out. Bretonnia is in the middle of a civil war in which one faction is openly using undead. A Bretonnian army using this lore is simply reflecting that faction of the civil war.

They've tried to make Wood Elves into a much more "grey" Elf much to my chagrin. They can currently use dark magic, so I can see it working with how GW is currently depicting Wood Elves. They're willing to embrace their darker side if the ends justify the means. It especially works with a forest spirit theme since those fuckers are nasty and vengeful.

Lizardmen and High Elves are problematic I will grant you. I can see High Elves with this justification: High Elves have done some pretty dark stuff to survive. The Sword of Khaine is probably right up there with using Undead and they used that when they were getting overwhelmed by daemons. I can see a particularly desperate isolated wizard possibly doing it. Out of character for High Elves? Absolutely. But if you want to do it, this supplement lets the player make up a back story. Lizardmen is the only faction I see straight up not working. I just can't think of any reason they would tap into the Lore of Undeath. Maybe they're cold and calculating enough to see the benefit. Jeff can get into a Lizardmen mindset better than I, so maybe he can come up with something.
**EDIT see Jeff's thing**

On the plus side, the one super stubborn faction that is absolutely so uncompromising that they would never ever ever fight with undead are the Dwarfs. Guess what? They can't use the Lore of Undeath thanks to having no wizards!

[Fritz]

As a side note, I love this expansion for one huge reason: it's energized the Warhammer community in a major way. When was the last time we had more than a passing conversation about Warhammer on this board? Now we're posting so fast that I'm getting notifications that other people have posted in the time it has taken me to write my own post. Look around the web and you can see the same thing. There is downright excitement for Warhammer that just hasn't been around for quite some time. I'm a bit bummed that I'm not going to be around for it.

[MorGrendel]

When a stone thrower hits a monster, only the rider OR the mount gets hit with the center template strength. The other takes the lower strength outer template hit. With cannons, however, you're taking the same strength hit. You can't tell me that getting hit with a cannon ball hurts the same as riding on something that takes the hit.

I think I'm arguing that a Bolt/Stone Thrower should hit both since they share a base. Now that said, I think single bases should be a great deal harder to hit. I mean they do have 4 eyes and 2 brains to see something coming. Maybe a dodge roll or reaction move, or something. Maybe a Dodge Move of X", where X is Initiative. If you have room to get away you are clear of the shot... Interesting thought.