50% Lords here to stay

[lilscutt]

I see what your saying jeff but anything that can get 1 plus armor is kinda nuts, and thunder stomps and 5 attacks for character and the on of that the carnie attacks. One carnie can wipe an entire block of 20 if the rolls well enough. Trust me I saw it happen to a 20 block of long beards. Sad period. Now for as being nerfed, I see that but there still alot of good coming out of the lizardmen.

[Fritz]

Clayson- The steam tanks I mentioned would be what annihilates the carnosaurs in that scenario. It's a hardcore list for a reason. How are carnosaurs killing 20 guys in a single round? Best I can come up with is 8 attacks from an Oldblood with Sword of Bloodshed, 5 attacks from a frenzied Carnosaur, and 6 from a thunderstomp. That puts the max attacks at 19, and assumes they all hit and wound. Considering the Oldblood would only be S5 and the Carnosaur is only WS3, that's highly unlikely. Even if you're talking about killing enough to make them not steadfast, you still need to kill 16 in a block of 20. One rank is still steadfast against a single monster since it's 1 rank vs. 0 ranks.

Jeff- What you're saying is about right. Lizards are considered in the middle of the pack (right below High Elves actually) by internet wisdom. The Slann is part of what is considered powerful about them though. Saurus Warriors are considered downright awful. Skink clouds are quite common in the lists I've seen because they're 1) cheap 2) maneuverable 3) poisoned and 4) don't give up many victory points because of 2. Carnosaurs have the exact problem you're talking about: cannons ruin your day. This is where the potential 9th edition merged statline would really help. You won't be effectively getting hit twice (rider once and mount once) and you'll get to pool your wounds and attacks. A 9th edition Scar Vet on Carnosaur should theoretically be WS5 BS- S7 T5 W7 I3 A8 LD8 with a 4+ save for 300 points before you add any equipment. That goes from mostly liability to quite usable. You aren't going to get cannoned off the table with one shot anymore.

Serban- Ogres are kind of the epitome of fast, tough, and hard hitting. Ogres don't need armor to be tough. Your base guy is T4 with 3 wounds, moves faster than any other base infantry, has impact hits, and stomps. Your Mournfangs are just silly powerful. In case you can't quite deal with those flying monsters, you have the original cannon chariot (instead of that stupid Khorne knock off). You're also one of those armies that doesn't really need magic to work well (and can supremely fuck with other people's magic). Warriors of Chaos are at the top of the food chain right now thanks to Nurgle Daemon Princes and Chimeras, but Ogres have not fallen far down the pecking over. They're right there with Dark Elves, Vampires, and Skaven, who have some sick combinations of their own. Luckily, the power levels in 8th edition aren't that bad, especially in comparison to previous editions (looking at you 7th). A powerful list from one of the top armies is only marginally better than a powerful list from someone further down the list.

[MorGrendel]

I see what your saying jeff but anything that can get 1 plus armor is kinda nuts, and thunder stomps and 5 attacks for character and the on of that the carnie attacks. One carnie can wipe an entire block of 20 if the rolls well enough. Trust me I saw it happen to a 20 block of long beards. Sad period. Now for as being nerfed, I see that but there still alot of good coming out of the lizardmen.

Send more Dwarves...Still hungry.

[lilscutt]

Talking GW with Fritz I better bring my A game. Lol

[Fritz]

This is what happens when you CAN'T PLAY FOR A FUCKING YEAR. You do a lot of theoryhammer.

[lilscutt]

This is what happens when you CAN'T PLAY FOR A FUCKING YEAR. You do a lot of theoryhammer.

Lmao that's funny. Should I send you some demo models and some dice so you can play?

[boagrius]

As the Galatian with the closest body type to an ogre I'm taking Serbans recommendation. I'm gonna ogre up for the next sca fight and show up naked. It might make me faster.

[MorGrendel]

A Game? Shit, Fritz can win on auto-pilot. I just play him to hear him say, "Why did you do that?"

Dang, I guess I need to purchase army builder. I have an idea for an air cav list.

[Berserker]

I still remember the ridiculous way ogres died to those poisoned skinks. I also remember going against your skaven and by the time i got close anough to engage your troops you had blown up more then half of my ogres with your long range stuff. It was a glorious death ;) I did beat your skaven when you fielded a fighty army, but that should be expected if we're just charging eachother.

The canon is great, but expensive (170). And my cav is 110 pts/ogre. How many cats can one field for that price? As for the supremly fucking with magic, that's just one magic item which can cause enemy wizards to miscast. I have never taken that item in any of my armies. You can't use that as the base to tell me i'm the bane of magic.

Here's a link to some current army rankings based on Europe's tournament results. Quite interesting.
http://www.tabletoptournaments.net/t3_armies.php?cid=0

[Fritz]

You're forgetting your banner of "can't touch this"

[Berserker]

It used to be good in the old rules. Now it redirects to another unit on a 2+ but it also redirects friendly spells so you can't buff the unit you're protecting. And you need a BSB to wield it, which means your BSB is now easy to kill as you put all his points into that banner. Also only works against spells that target the unit, so things like the comet would not be deflected. Not worth the points. No one ever takes it.

[MorGrendel]

I may be wrong, I thought BSB banners were additional to hero points.

[Fritz]

No, magic banners take up your entire magic point allotment on a hero, regardless of the points of the magic banner.

Serban, that's news to me. I'm not sure what "new rules" you're referring to. I'm looking at the errata, and it says "“When any enemy spell targeting a unit with the Rune Maw is successfully cast, roll a D6." Is there something else in the book itself that specifically says it affects friendly spells? I fear you might have been cheating yourself. The dreaded Gutstar is still something that pops up on forums with "how the hell do I beat this" always attached to it. The BSB may be "weak" (he is still T5 though), but the usual Gutstar puts him in the second rank by loading up the front rank with other characters. That's a mean nasty unit. Definitely a one trick pony that is usually undone with Purple Sun, but incredibly nasty if it hits home.

Mournfang cav are only 70 points per dude with heavy armor and ironfist last I saw. They're still the biggest baddest monstrous cav around. Well worth the investment and still rightly feared. An Ironblaster might be 170, but that's only 50 points more than an Empire cannon, is more accurate thanks to volley of cannonballs, can MOVE AND SHOOT, has impact hits, and can't be easily taken out by the usual scouts or fast cav in combat. The thing is a steal. Now here's the thing: every competitive Ogre list looks damned near the same. Double Ironblaster and as many Mournfangs as possible. There go most of your points and that's a boring ass list. Other armies have more options available when making a competitive list. Vampire Counts probably have it best for variability. Their book has wonderful internal balance. Ogres don't really have that. You have a few amazing choices, but a good amount of lackluster ones that are usually only seen in friendly games (such as those within our group).

I think we can all agree on one think though: fuck Chaos.

[MorGrendel]

Dogs of War are on that list........they were never a tournament army. Oddly, they are not labeled obsolete. I thought this rule book banned them.

[Fritz]

That whole website is a little weird. Not sure what the heck they're measuring. What the heck does "army distribution" mean? Is that just a popularity metric? I went to the last 6 months tab and saw Vampire Counts near the bottom on "Army Ranking (on all results)" which I just don't buy. Here's the other thing. That web site doesn't take comp into consideration. Some armies get hit hard with the nerf bat under certain comps. Ogres, for one, can't take some of their nastiest combinations in ETC. Vampires get pretty tightly restricted as well. Hop over to the US rankings, which usually feature less comp, Ogres are right up there (with an admittedly small sample size).

I'm not saying my "interwebs wisdom" is the best way to go, but Ogres and Vampires are much more feared across the board than that website would lead you to believe.