End Times Magic

[Fritz]

End Times: Khaine introduces new rules for the magic phase. Unlike 50% lords, they have not been incorporated into basic Warhammer (although who knows what 9th edition will bring at this rate). You are supposed to use it if you plan on using any of the lists used out of the book (which I do), but we can obviously ignore that in our group if we so wish. I'd like to see what everyone's opinion is on it. I'm very much on the fence, which I'll explain later. For now, here are the main differences:

• Winds of Magic are 4D6, with the highest two results being the dispel dice.
  
  After declaring what spell you are attempting to cast, you roll a D6. The result is the maximum number of dice you can use to cast the spell. Once you're at this point, you must allocate at least one die to the casting attempt regardless. The dispelling player likewise rolls to see the maximum number of dice they can use to dispel. They, however, do not have to commit a die to the attempt by the way I'm reading it.
  
  Each lore has an End Times spell associated with it. A Level 3 or higher wizard automatically knows the End Times spell of his/her chosen lores(s). End Times spells can not be dispelled if successfully cast. They are all very powerful spells, but all are expensive to cast and therefore limited by the random number of dice allowed to be used.
  
  Spells can be used any number of times in the magic phase so long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful. The exception to this are End Times spells and spells that have a casting value of 15 or more, in which they can only be cast once as usual.
  
  Wizards no longer break concentration, so they can keep on casting as long as there are dice left.
  
  All wizards know all spells for their chosen lore(s). Any model with the loremaster rule may re-roll casting rolls. If a model knows more than one lore, then they get all the spells from those lores. They explicitly say that the Loremaster of Hoeth (and therefore the Wandering Deliberations Slann) knows all 56 spells from the basic rulebook lores.

My inital reaction was "Ick, super random." However, the more I'm looking at it the more I think I like it. The current magic system has two major flaws. First, any idiot can six dice a super spell to victory. Lolmindrazor has won me way too many games. That's why I stopped using Shadow to be honest. Six dicing and going for broke on high casting value spells isn't a good strategy when you don't know exactly how many dice you're going to have. Second, magic can easily go the other way, giving you almost no juice for most of the game. I know Jeff very much has had this problem, and I've definitely had my games where my magic user feels like a complete waste. 4D6 dice helps that problem significantly. Overall, this system initially looks like more randomization, but it also might mitigate some of the worst randomness of the current system. What are your thoughts?

[MorGrendel]

At a glance, it makes casters seem indispensable. If I follow you, the caster has on average 7 more dice than the defender. That is a healthy advantage. Also, knowing all the spells definitely increases the value and synergy of the caster.

The die rolling to see how much power you can draw - like you said - seems random, arbitrary, and an extra unnecessary step. However, naming the spell beforehand does mitigate the six-dice-death-punch. Its a taxxing nerf, i have these spells, but who knows if I'll be able to cast them. Guess we'll have to try it out. On the other hand, if the roll happened before you chose the spell, so as to represent a tide of energy flowing into your caster or the fickle eldritch winds ebbing, I think that would make far more thematic sense. Also, if you are going to require a roll, it may as well lock the dice; allowing the minimum of 1 die seems hokey and fiddly. That leaves the 6DDP an option, but most likely used early rather than not at all. Alternatively, if not locking the dice in, then a penalty like removing a power die for every 1 rolled (then roll again) or stating that two 1's in a row ends the magic phase would create pressure to cast while the the winds are with you.

I think this rule set is interesting. I think though, that I would play it wrong... In that I'd avoid the big nasties, and cast lots of small utilitarian spells. I don't have the book here, but I could see one dice buffs and the smaller 2d6 Magic missiles having way more use. And I'd much rather rock a Gandalf.

Also would have to look at more magic resistance.

[Fritz]

My reaction is the same. Go for the smaller utilitarian spells. You're much more likely to get them. The Power Stone becomes much more useful if you really need that one big spell though.

[MorGrendel]

Same for Power Scroll - my personal favorite - and really the only way to get off the Dreaded 13th.

Will we see these finally used?
Feedback Scroll
Scroll of Leeching
Wand of Jet
Trickster's Shard
Sceptre of Stability
Scroll of Shielding
Wizarding Hat

Can you "lose" a spell when you have Loremaster?

[lilscutt]

The rule is if you use any list from the book or if you or your opponent want to use end times spell then this is magic phase. Lime fritz said In our group I don't think it well matter as long as you agree before the game. I thought at first the new magic phase was over powered because you could cast the same spell as many times as you want, but then I sat and thought about with the new phases on how you try to roll for the spell and how you try to deny it i think it is fair and going to be unique (unless your fritz which use big dice bc big dice roll funny) I think it well take a couple of games but I think we'll be fun.

[lilscutt]

Same for Power Scroll - my personal favorite - and really the only way to get off the Dreaded 13th.

Will we see these finally used?
Feedback Scroll
Scroll of Leeching
Wand of Jet
Trickster's Shard
Sceptre of Stability
Scroll of Shielding
Wizarding Hat

Can you "lose" a spell when you have Loremaster?

I'm sure if someone was to break your spell or something causes you to lose a spell then I believe you lose a spell

[MorGrendel]

The rule is if you use any list from the book or if you or your opponent want to use end times spell then this is magic phase. Lime fritz said In our group I don't think it well matter as long as you agree before the game. I thought at first the new magic phase was over powered because you could cast the same spell as many times as you want, but then I sat and thought about with the new phases on how you try to roll for the spell and how you try to deny it i think it is fair and going to be unique (unless your fritz which use big dice bc big dice roll funny) I think it well take a couple of games but I think we'll be fun.

I only understood about a quarter of that, but apparently a Lime Fritz is a thing.
http://www.selectafly.com/lime-fritz-booby-2992-p.asp
Kinda took away my fire to superimpose Fritz's head on a lime on a thumb... But if Doug did it I'd still laugh.

I agree, I too "think we'll be fun."

I'm sorry if I sound mean, but I came home and planned on making a list with the new rules when I remembered Clayson was still holding my book hostage!!!!! x infinity.

[Berserker]

I like randomness! A lot. So i definately like the D6 roll that puts kinks in your plans. I'm of the opposing view to you all in that I think magic is too powerful today, so adding randomness I think makes it better, even if you now allow potential of more spells to be cast and less dispell potential.

The thing i really don't like is being able to know all the spells in all the lores available. That makes you able to pick the best spells from each lore which makes the wizards waay to utilitarian and really absolutely a must in every list. You can ignore the shitty spells and only use the best spells. That's min-maxing at it's best. And since you no longer break concentration the sky is the limit! You should be limited to only one Lore, even if the wizard is able to choose from multiple lores.

And I liked the original limitation of knowing only as many spells as your level. I see no reason why that should change especially since you would now allow a user to recast the same spell over and over and over and over and over...

[lilscutt]

The rule is if you use any list from the book or if you or your opponent want to use end times spell then this is magic phase. Lime fritz said In our group I don't think it well matter as long as you agree before the game. I thought at first the new magic phase was over powered because you could cast the same spell as many times as you want, but then I sat and thought about with the new phases on how you try to roll for the spell and how you try to deny it i think it is fair and going to be unique (unless your fritz which use big dice bc big dice roll funny) I think it well take a couple of games but I think we'll be fun.

I only understood about a quarter of that, but apparently a Lime Fritz is a thing.
http://www.selectafly.com/lime-fritz-booby-2992-p.asp
Kinda took away my fire to superimpose Fritz's head on a lime on a thumb... But if Doug did it I'd still laugh.

I agree, I too "think we'll be fun."

I'm sorry if I sound mean, but I came home and planned on making a list with the new rules when I remembered Clayson was still holding my book hostage!!!!! x infinity.

Dick, yes I should spell check and re read my sentences. I hold it hostage bc you don't use it anymore. I've tried to get you Back into playing but all we ever do is talk on this forum. Lol big dice cheat. That is all!!!!

[boagrius]

It is true that big dice hate clayson. Mine have crushed his poor whittle eldar twice now.

I love the idea of having tons of little powers going off for my tomb kings it's the only powers we do well.
The only thing I don't like about the new powers are the d6 after you declare a power. It seems in contrast to what you would really do. I'm gonna cast this powerful spell oh wait I'm a lame duck and can't right now. Or I HAVE THE POWER heman style and now I'm gonna through a magic comet at your friggin head. Take that stupid poison ASSasin rat who kills giant living statues with one blow pff whatever.

I think you should roll the d6 to see how many dice you get to us then pick your spell but you can't come back to that spell later. If your gonna use it more than once you focus on that spell one at a time so you'd have to use it right after the first time then move on if you don't have enough juice to use it again. IMHO. Well maybe not humble. Friggin rats.

[Titus]

I am getting the feeling that Boagrius does not like rats.

[MorGrendel]

Ahhhh, you should have been there. One big scythed-armed monstrosity flies in to harry my flank, and one lone assassin darts out from his unit unafraid. The automaton of death turns a his cold gaze as my assassin sprints across the war torn earth and then scurries up its imposing frame. With crushing force it bats at the stealthy rat, but to no avail. The master of the dark arts plunges his warp-poisoned twin blades into the eyes of the beast, and it crumples and turns to dust. The Assassin rides the avalanche of stone to the ground, acting like nothing of great importance has happened.

Jeff hoots manically, Chris laments to an undead horse with no rider.

[boagrius]

Actually what really happened was my brave and heroic statue which had defended our realm for millinium strode forth to stop the blight of all ages spreading its disease and plague to our kingdom. As he faces the puny vermin that cower before him, one sneaky little rat jumps out and stabs my hero with what should have been NO MORE THAN A TOOtHPICK and I friggin die. How the hell do you poison rock? I mean come on, I've been fighting FOREVER and have slain monsters and daemons and this RAT whose life last like 2 years just kills me. Damn rats.

[boagrius]

Screw skaven.

[MorGrendel]

In rock-paper-ninja, ninja beats rock.