c'mon MAN!

[ahrimen]

"The climate might benefit from the absence of polluting aircraft, although the cancellation of 100,000 or so flights would amount to just a blip on the rising graph of the world's carbon emissions." this was seriously taken from an article on yahoo about the volcano in Iceland, that you can even compare jet engine emissions to a volcano........... not a single mention about how much carbon is being emitted by this VOLCANO every second, but that no carbon is cumming from a few piddly little planes is a good thing, am i the only one who sees the irony in this? this ash cloud covers more than 1/2 of Europe, but they honestly expect me to buy that it has less carbon than some planes is at best idiotic.

[MorGrendel]

Agreed. Though their aint much we can do about the volcano. I think people would bitch less if we had flying cars. (I think its funny that sentence make sense)

[ahrimen]

still! it only only proves my point about "farting into a hurricane" we have no control period. the earth will do as she does and we are insignificant. ( we can stop using fossil fuel and the effect would be no different as farting into a hurricane, it will change nothing)

[MorGrendel]

I don't know, probably depends on the size of the fart.

[ahrimen]

well a Boagrius fart!??

[Berserker]

I agree as well. That volcano will not pass emissions control ;)

However, I think that regardless of what a volcano does, we as humans have a responsibility to do what we can to not polute the place we live in. Just because the volcano cannot be stopped, does in no way give us the right to dismiss the polution we create. We should lower emissions and make vehicles more environmentally friendly. We should create appliances that use less energy. We should find ways to create energy that is cleaner.

Think about how nasty and poluted was Beijing before the olympics. They actually had to decree that all factories shut down so that they can clean the air some because it was so nasty that the world refused to bring their athletes there. That was no volcano, that was human polution. It is very real.

[ahrimen]

locally sure, you can affect you local environment. Beijing is a city with a enormous # of people living in a relatively small space. we however have minor to no effect on "global warming" (remember the scientist who started this whole thing where exposed for falsification of data) it plain and simple is a way for socialist to make the USA and capitalism the "bad guy" To illustrate this i will use 2 examples you (Serban) had given me about what your life was like living under a totalitarian socialist regime, and compare them to how the "Green movement" would like us to live. ( i would do more but i dont have time)

1) you once told me how people in America got to eat "choice cuts of meat" and in Romania during Communism people only ate meat rarely and when they did it was chicken necks and the like. The green movement has targeted live stock as a major source of green house gas, they would like to see a massive reduction in live stock #'s. the effect that will have is to raise the price of meat to the point where only the rich could afford ' choice cuts" and us peasants get to eat the left overs when available, because the #'s they want would also most definitely lead to rationing of meat.

2) you told me how the government controlled your heat, and the turned it on when they damn well pleased.(to my recollection was not often). this is also in the works and if you have ever heard of "peak rewards program" by BGE then you will know its true. for the moment it may seem like a good way to save the planet ,cash and power. but you are handing over control of your thermostat to a "publicly regulated utility" and soon i guarantee it it will no longer be optional. and when the greenies have decided you have use to much heat/ac you will be cut off.

you also told me you would always vote against things the reminded you of communism...............

[Berserker]

Well, we're jumping all over the place here. I don't think I mentioned anything about global warming. It's no longer global warming, it's climate change now, thank you very much ;) And I think that it used to be global cooling before the global warming.

Now I will respond to your points.
You are arguing that we have a very limited effect on our environment so there is no big deal. As you mentioned, we affect out environment locally, but we live locally too. Our environment is comprised of all these local points together. You would not want to live in any local place that is as polluted as Beijing. We want a good level of living. As such, we don't litter because we don't want to live in trash. We have emmission controls because we don't want to smell those fumes when we sit on our porch. Our government cracks down on factories dumping sludge in rivers because we want to be able to bathe in the river, eat the fish and drink the water. By your argument, we should allow anybody to do whatever they want to our environment. I disagree.

I don't know much about what this green movement is but it is incorrect for you to lump all people that care about the enviroment into some radical left wing vegan organization that wants to remove meat from people's tables. It's the same as me saying that democrats kill babies while in the mother's womb, that republicans deny science, or that christians are cop killers (see Hutaree Christian Militia). They are unfounded generalizations that lump people into radical left or right wing groups.

Both your points use this green movement group as a base for doom that is to come to our country. I don't agree with it. You are using current day examples of different environmentally friendly actions such as the BGE paying you money to allow them to turn off your AC unit a few times a year when their electric grid cannot support all the demand (totally voluntary), and saying that this is going to result in us being rationed hot water in communist USA. That is false. You are using a slippery slope fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope).

Yes, if people stopped me from eating the meat that I want, or not allowing me to bathe in hot water, I would be pissed and revolt, but these arguments are far reaching based on some radical left wing green movement (which I am not a part of and I'm sure most people are not a part of either) and I don't agree with them.

[MorGrendel]

To tack on here, Emmisions (CO2 + Alkoline metals + Arsenic) and Global Waming/Cooling are actually two different issues.

I think everyone, not just Greenies, agrees that coal plants should install scrubbers so that they don't dump Arsensic into our air. And since these scrubbers can clean up Arsenic, why not clean up Alkoline metals (particularly Barium) too. And why we are at it we should work on Toluene (C7H8), a "natural" bi-product of mining. It just Hydrogen and Carbon, but it causes cancer to the touch, is insoluble in water (so once it is in our drinking water, its in), and I've seen it burn the legs off of ducks. Also if I remember right, that Erin Brokovich story was basicly about that; Mines set up holding pools for liquid debris, the pools leaked, and Toluene leeched into the soil and found its way into crops and wells. I want to think 20+ babies died from contamination, when their baby bottles were washed with well water.

Making large corporations dispose of waste responsibily is NOT a climate change issue, . . .even if my TV and the corporate lobbist say it is.

They want us to argue and do nothing, so they can continue business as usual. They may have a point as to who is going to pay for all of these scrubbers, but I imagine that community that lost their babies would pay in an instant if they could hold thier children again. I think cap and trade is stupid not because it doesn't do enough, I think it is stupid because it is not strong enough. It attempts to legistrate risk, rather than simple say, "This is wrong, Stop it." Lead harms and kills, we all figured that out. And in 10 years, the WORLD decided to stop using it. Ofcourse we had a moral compass back then.

BAH!

[MorGrendel]

And another thing, we would require and sanction a nuclear power plant to dispose of its waste responsibly, why can't we do the same for outmoded industries like oil and coal. We made loggers change their practices, why can't miners and riggers. "Because that's the way its always been done", "Its a culture of roughneck work", "It would be too costly to change", that's bullshit. Evolve or be left behind.

[MorGrendel]

One last thought, the green movement is in some part America's think-tank way to get us back into the manufacturing business, a job sector that has pretty much dried up. Americans, generally refuse to work in dirty industry, so a green factory job is a clean dirty job.

[ahrimen]

wow this is off track......... i have no problem with NOT living in trash or breathing arsenic, my problem is that there is a huge article about the volcano blasting tonnes of stuff into the atmosphere and that an idiot reporter goes after the airline industry...

opposition to global warming propaganda has been likened to holocaust deniers by Al Gore, he is a committed socialist and he propels the "far left movement" so it is not a small obscure group of individuals. i do hope the people in this country would stand up when things get to where rationing and total control of our lives becomes a reality. but no one has ever been lured in to oppression by " your an idiot and im smart i and can run your life better than you" they will sell you on "your freedom is killing the planet and YOU! can save it by giving up your freedom,........just a bit! (at first ) this inspires people to think they are making a difference, as the volcano illustrated, you are not.


we must limit the size of our statements in these debates, i work construction, i dont type a lot and it takes me like an hour to type a response :? you all have coushy office jobs and type all damn day!

[MorGrendel]

Since you didn't post a link to the story, I could not comment on it. I could only comment on what I gleaned from your statement which sounded anti-green.

Also, It's 10pm, I'm not working, I just got out of school. Finally, you can't sit still for more then six minutes, you don't want a cushy office job.

[ahrimen]

how true!